Out of Order

German Marshall Fund

Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered.


Out of Order

Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Featured Guests

Where To Start

"The Best Year in European History”: Timothy Garton Ash on 1989

Extraordinary things happened in 1989. The Berlin Wall fell. Europe finally came close to being “whole and free.” But that was not where history ended. The subsequent rise of an “anti-liberal counterrevolution” showed that the liberal internationalists’ agenda was far from bullet-proof.

The tipping point, according to historian Timothy Garton Ash, was Ukraine’s 2004 Orange Revolution—when Putin woke up and found the West at his door. Renowned historian Garton Ash joins “Out of Order” for a reflection on the legacy of Europe’s not-so-distant history: what the West got so wrong, China’s 1989 connection, and whether a liberal agenda is viable in today’s politics.

Will Cities Save Us From Climate Change?

As frustration with inaction on climate change at the national and global level boils over, cities of all sizes and geographies just might hold the solutions we need to take action on global warming. In this episode of Out of Order, two mayors from opposite sides of the Atlantic—Cambridge, MA and Heidelberg, Germany-- are at the table to discuss the role of cities in confronting climate change and how their respective communities are innovating in the face of national gridlock. Mayor Marc McGovern and Mayor Eckart Würzner are both part of the GMF Cities project,

Energy Allies, a four-city dialogue that fosters strategic partnerships and collaboration between local civil society and government leaders.

From Paris to Warsaw, How Europe is Answering to "America First"

The Trump administration’s hard-nosed approach to the European Union has left leaders across the Atlantic questioning where the relationship with the U.S. is headed. According to GMF’s president Dr. Karen Donfried, a tour of Europe shows how the outlook on America changes based on where you sit. While the talk in Paris is all about “strategic autonomy,” Warsaw is buzzing about “strategic embrace.”

This week on Out of Order, Dr. Donfried sits down with GMF’s Peter Sparding to discuss the three strategic Europes—and what the differences in attitudes reveals about European cohesion and also the future of the transatlantic relationship. The conversation is based on an article by Dr. Donfried that appeared in Defense One earlier this year.

Meet The Hosts

Jonathan Katz

Co-Host, Senior Fellow

Jonathan Katz is a senior fellow and directs the Frontlines of Democracy Initiative with The German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF) based in the Washington, DC, office. Prior to joining GMF, from 2014-17, Katz was the deputy assistant administrator in the Europe and Eurasia bureau at the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), where he managed U.S. development policy, energy security, economic growth, and democracy, and governance programs in Europe and Eurasia. Katz served as the U.S. government co-chair of political, economic, trade and development working groups with the European Union, Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia, Poland, Romania, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD).

Where To Listen

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